Shame on David Montgomery! He's a great book reviewer, but he's finally come up with his list of ten best detective novels ever, after much discussion and debate on his blog, and there are no women authors in the list!
Take a look if you don't believe me.
I made various suggestions to David Montgomery in his comments, along the lines of Christie, Sayers, Allingham, James (PD), Slaughter, Higgins Clark (M) and others...surely it couldn't be that hard?
How about trying to put together a list of the 10 best detective novels written by women? Suggestions in the comments -- please. I'd like to give David a run for his money.
Link: Crime Fiction Dossier: 10 Greatest Detective Novels -- The List.
Ah, don't put any shame on me! :)
I definitely considered female authors in the decision. I read and review a lot of books by women. I think that, in this narrow corner of the genre, though, women don't figure quite as prominently.
As a result, I didn't come up with any books by women that were so strong that they would replace anything that's currently on there. (And I didn't want to go with an "affirmative action" approach and just include a woman for the sake of including a woman.)
I read many Agatha Christie books year ago and enjoyed them. She's a fine writer and a pivotal figure in the mystery genre, no question. I didn't think any of her books were of the level of the ones I included, though. She's more notable for her body of work than for any individual book.
I've never read Sayers or Allingham, and didn't care for PD James. Karin Slaughter and Mary Higgins Clark don't really write detective novels.
My favorite contemporary female detective writers are probably Laura Lippman and Denise Hamilton. I think they're both great writers, but neither quite cracked the list.
I'm still willing to be persuaded on different books. I just haven't come up with any yet.
Posted by: David J. Montgomery | 06 October 2006 at 19:39
Hate to say it, Maxine, but I'm with David on this one. The decision should be a sex-blind one, and women--or any other under-represented group--not included just to round out the numbers. The list is a small matter, I know, but this is just the sort of thinking that goes on in the world today and it drives me crazy.
Posted by: Debra Hamel | 06 October 2006 at 19:52
Maxine,David has got to be joking with his all male, all American list.
Here's four suggestions for discussion:
P.D.James, A Certain Justice
Donna Leon, Friend's in High Places
Ruth Rendell, Shake Hands for Ever
and Agatha Christie, Murder on the Orient Express.
You are not rounding out the numbers you just cannot have a list of "best detective novels" without including Piro as my 95 year old mother in law calls him.
Posted by: Norm alias Uriah Robinson | 06 October 2006 at 20:31
I nominate Mo Hayder's "Birdman"
Or what about "The Laughing Policeman" by Maj Sjöwall (and her husband Peter Wahlöö) ?
Posted by: kimbofo | 06 October 2006 at 20:34
Five Little Pigs - Agatha Christie; The Murder of Roger Ackroyd - Christie again; The Murder Room PD James; Nine Tailors D L Sayers; anything by Ngaio Marsh; anything by Ruth Rendell
Quite easy to come up with a few I feel - just a case of reading them!
Posted by: Elaine | 06 October 2006 at 20:39
I'd rather be boiled in oil than read some of the authors listed above. But that's part of the beauty of books! We all love and appreciate different things.
Posted by: David J. Montgomery | 06 October 2006 at 21:03
Maxine,
I won't go near a male/female debate after the ITW's online debacle earlier this year. But what does surprise me in this list is the predominance of US authors. I think it's the 10 greatest detective novels in one person's (US based) opinion based on what they've read. I've no gripe with that. But I don't see it as a list of the 10 greatest detective novels per se, or ever.
I'm not an academic, but I think that someone studying the genre and its history worldwide would come up with another list.
But again, should it be an academic anyway?
It's all subjective. Very subjective and that's what prompts debate.
Good on David for highlighting the genre that so many of us enjoy.
Posted by: crimeficreader | 06 October 2006 at 23:38
I suspect that nothing could delight David more than to be derided for his choices -- derided by hundreds and thousands of readers, all visiting his blog to deride him. Good job getting some fur flying!
Good job, too, for suggesting a top-10 list of detective novels written by women. I suspect that once that list takes shape, Sayers, Christie and maybe Ruth Rendell or P.D. James will be on it. Once that happens, we'll be able to take a deep breath, gain some perspective, and realize that for much of the history of crime fiction, men and women have written different types of books. As a rough go, I'd say that female writers have probably tended toward the classic whodunnit in the old days and toward the psychological-thriller side of crime in recent decades. A preference for the more traditional male-centered P.I. and police procedural, rather than some antipathy toward women, may account for the absence of female writers from David's or anyone else's list.
Remember what David's list is about: the Top Ten Detective Novels. I suspect that any list of Top Ten Psychological Crime Thrillers would contain names like Rendell, Patricia Highsmith, and maybe Minette Walters -- a paucity of men, in other words.
As for female writers who ventured into areas where male writers have predominated, say Sara Paretsky or Faye Kellerman, I suspect it will be a few years before anyone can rightly assess where they belong on all-time lists.
===================
Detectives Without Borders
"Because Murder is More Fun Away from Home"
http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/
Posted by: Peter | 07 October 2006 at 00:04
Let me throw out the names of Craig Rice and Leigh Brackett in an effort to get someone other than the usual suspects on the list of great female crime writers.
===================
Detectives Without Borders
"Because Murder is More Fun Away from Home"
http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/
Posted by: Peter | 07 October 2006 at 02:05
I could mention Leigh Brackett and Dana Stabenow, both of whom are terrific. Stabenow is at least as good as anybody out there right now.
Otherwise, I have to agree with Chandler, McDonald, Parker, and Hammett choices.
Posted by: Arthur Durkee | 07 October 2006 at 06:15
I agree with Debra that tokenism is not to be desired.
I also agree with CrimeFicReader's implication that David's list would have been better called "My 10 favourite detective novels, and I don't much like any I've read that are by women".
Thanks, everyone, for all the suggestions -- I will make them into a posting soon.
Posted by: Maxine | 07 October 2006 at 13:11
Maxine, your last statement is very unfair. The implication that I don't like books by women is offensive.
I won't try to justify myself, though. I think my track record as a critic stands for itself.
Posted by: David J. Montgomery | 07 October 2006 at 17:36
David, sorry, I did not intend to be offensive, I did not mean it that way. But I and others did suggest plenty of books by women writers in your comments when you invited suggestions for your list -- it was a pretty extensive collection of authors to reject in entirety in my opinion.
But I do apologise if I've caused offence, as that was not my intention -- it was supposed to be irony. I agree, you are a great book reviewer. I wish I were half as good.
Posted by: Maxine | 07 October 2006 at 19:17
Perhaps I overreacted, Maxine, in which case let me be the one to apologize. I appreciate the gracious things you said about my work.
Posted by: David J. Montgomery | 07 October 2006 at 21:10
I had a peek at David Montgomery's list and am still laughing. Im afraid that lists only really tell us something about the people who compile them.
Of the women writers' of detective novels, all of the following have impressed me on several occasions:
Patricia Highsmith
Sarah Dunant
Gillian Slovo
Kirstin Ekman
Veronika Stallwood
Julia Wallace Martin
Posted by: John Baker | 08 October 2006 at 17:41
Are we talking strictly "detective" novels, or using "detective" novels as short hand for cime novels? I don't believe Patricia Highsmith wrote detective novels...
Posted by: Tribe | 08 October 2006 at 17:47
I keep wondering about that myself, Tribe... Many of the suggestions I've seen for authors or books aren't detective novels. But I suppose that's part of the beauty of making your own list: you get to put whatever the hell you want on it! :)
For Maxine's all-female list, I would suggest Agatha Christie's "The Mysterious Affair at Styles," Laura Lippman's "By a Spider's Thread" and Denise Hamilton's "The Jasmine Trade." Those were the 3 that just missed the cut on my list.
Posted by: David J. Montgomery | 08 October 2006 at 18:56
I had a peek at David Montgomery's list and am still laughing. Im afraid that lists only really tell us something about the people who compile them.
=============
Just as the tone of a comment can tell us something about the person who made it, John Baker.
Posted by: Reader | 08 October 2006 at 19:26
I'm not much of a reader of detective fiction. However, first of all, if you're including classics you absolutely must include something by Christie.
As for modern writers. Laura Lippman's "Every Secret Thing" is superb. I've also just read Alex Barclay's "Darkhouse" and it was a terrific read.
Posted by: Kevin Wignall | 08 October 2006 at 20:31
I'm surprised how few novels by women or men from outside the Anglophone world have been mentions. One of the best detective novels of the past decade, for instance, is Dominique Manotti's "Sombre Sentier," or in English, "Rough Trade," and the sequel that's been published in translation is equally good. Karin Fossum is very good, and Kerstin Ekman's 2 detective novels are amazing, as novels. And that's just women from Scandinavia (I think Pieke Bierman from Germany is very good, along with Fred Vargas--who is a woman--in her detective series from France). But I'd say no one should make a list without considering Dominique Manotti.
Posted by: Glenn Harper | 08 October 2006 at 20:35
If we broaden the parameters just a bit I would add Tess Gerritsen
and Laura Lippman to Agatha Christie.
Posted by: Steve Clackson | 08 October 2006 at 21:57
One thing that has become quite obvious to me since I launched this tempest in a teapot is how damn many books there are that we all love so much, and how few of them any of us have read -- even those of us who read a lot.
It reminds me of why this genre is such a rich one.
Posted by: David J. Montgomery | 08 October 2006 at 22:41
Aside from Patricia Highsmith and Dorothy Hughes, I have to admit that I have read dreadfully few crime fiction by females, much less detective fiction (which in turn, aside from the white guy classics, I haven't read all that much either). I haven't gone out of my way to avoid them, just haven't read many.
Posted by: Tribe | 08 October 2006 at 23:00
Shamefacedly I have to admit that my reading of women's detective fiction halted at Agatha Christie about twenty years ago, (after I read all of her books mind you).
However here's a list compiled by my missus: :)
Patricia Highsmith - Stranger on a Train and The Snail Watcher.
Patricia Cornwall - The Last Precinct
Minette Walters - The Sculptress and The Scold's Bride
Mary Higgins-Clark - The Cradle will Fall and A Cry in the Night
Sarah Paretsky - Deadlock
Ruth Rendell - The keys to the street
Posted by: skint writer | 08 October 2006 at 23:56
Interesting picks! Other than Sara Paretsky, though, I don't think any of those are detective novels. I do, however, love the work of Patricia Highsmith. Ripley was an extraordinary book.
Obviously anyone can use whatever criteria they want for creating their own list. The one I used (and which seems the most obvious) was:
A novel featuring a detective (or perhaps a pair of detectives) as the protagonist, who spends the bulk of the story investigating a crime. Could be an amateur detective or pro, could be private or police.
But if the main character isn't a detective, it ain't a detective novel. It's probably just a plain old mystery novel.
Posted by: David J. Montgomery | 09 October 2006 at 00:36
Some more recent favorite detective novels:
Karin Fossum - HE WHO FEARS THE WOLF
Fred Vargas - HAVE MERCY ON US ALL
S.J. Rozan - STONE QUARRY (and the whole series)
Jan Burke - BLOODLINES
Sara Gran - Dope
Maggie Estep - HEX
Carol O'Connell - MALLORY'S ORACLE (and the whole series)
Posted by: Sarah | 09 October 2006 at 01:31
A top ten list of detective novels that not only omits Christie and Sayers but leaves off all the women since then? Pshaw.
My vote for the list goes to Sayer's masterpiece, Gaudy Night.
Posted by: mapletree7 | 09 October 2006 at 05:17
Hmmm. Detective novels ... as in police procedural ...
In the spirit of breaking down the restrictions, I'm going to suggest some that wouldn't fit into that category, but certainly would go in a thriller selection.:
Patricia Highsmith
Gillian Slovo
Andrea Badenoch
Donna Tart
Sorry if they don't fit and therefore don't help. I often find I 'don't fit' - but I always try to help!
Posted by: Debi | 09 October 2006 at 12:26
I don't read detective fiction, Maxine, so I can't give you a list of my fave top 10. However, I did go through a phase of reading Ruth Rendall books a few years ago. Does she count?
Posted by: Marie | 10 October 2006 at 10:36
Some years ago, I read *everything* ever written by Dorothy Sayers and loved it all. Her best, though, in my opinion (prob. 'cause I had such a crush on old Peter Wimsey as envisioned by D.S.) is _Gaudy Night_.
Sayers should definitely make any top ten list of detective fiction!
Posted by: Susan Balee | 10 October 2006 at 17:37
I second the vote for Carol O'Connell
Posted by: mariaschneider | 12 October 2006 at 19:31
Of course we should not forget Ruth Rendell in her guise as Barbara Vine, not sure these would be regarded as 'crime' novels per se but they are pretty chilling
Posted by: Elaine | 12 October 2006 at 20:58